4 Comments
Published by Jeff
on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 at 9:30 AM. 
In my recent post, "Written on their Hearts" which can be found below, I discussed how evidence of God can be found in the most unlikely of places. In making that point, I have undoubtedly invited criticism of myself even to the point where I may not believe the Bible is God's Word. This indictment comes from Danny Kaye. For those of you who read this blog, Danny Kaye also has other issues with my so-called Christianity. In "A Question of Blogging," he came down on me for keeping my blog thoughts away from my wife. After that post, I thought that he was a Christian brother just concerned about a mistake I may be making in my walk. I welcomed his comments and thoughts to help me stay accountable.
After this post, however, I am coming to the realization that there may be more than this from Danny Kaye. It almost seems that he can't wait to see the splinter in my eye in order to call me on it. I still will give him the benefit of the doubt, but I do see the possibility that he may have some kind of "moral police" mentality. At any rate, I STILL welcome his comments. They still will help me think about my life and keep me accountable. As a matter of fact, I actually enjoy the engagement and would not reject off hand the idea of partnering with him on a Christian debate blog if this one hasn't morphed into that already.
I never dreamed that Danny Kaye or anyone would have a problem with my post. Instead of concentrating on my point, which he DID recognize, it seemed that he was just waiting to pounce by taking liberties with his assumptions.
Now for his charges and my response:
"First, let me say that I love concerts. I love music. I love crowds. I love a cold beer (especially after an ultimate frisbee game). I love entertainment in a big way! But...I have to ask this question before I start: Do you believe the Bible? (No, seriously.) . . . I mean, do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that it is the Standard and Ruler on which we should base our lives? The answer to that question will determine whether or not my comments will be heard without a "filter", or if my comment will fall flat."
Ironically, the post before this controversial one concluded with me pointing to the Bible as Truth and the Word of God. This means that either I am being charged with being a hypocrite, or not understanding what the concept of the Word of God means. I admit to being a hypocrite. I admitted that on this blog before. We ALL are. However, I don't believe I was hypoctical with my views of the concert. I do believe that the Bible is "the Standard and Ruler" on which I should base my life. However, the last sentence in Danny Kaye's quote is illigitimate. He sets up an exlcusive conditon which there is no room for any other possibility. Frankly, I don't see how he can claim that authority. Even if he does, I don't recognize it because I see a vast number of possibilities.
"But the part I have difficulty with is the part about not being offended by the sinfulness you saw there. I have to say that this one definately does NOT stack up well against the Scriptures.I am reminded of the Tower of Babel. Here was a bunch of folks who were sinning up a storm (the act of attempting to reach heaven without the help of God). The Lord found their activities offensive, even though they were unified."
I don't disagree with this. The people about the Tower of Babel were bypassing God to try to reach heaven. God was offended and TOOK ACTION AGAINST THEM. This is important. It was GOD that was offended and took action. This judgement was and is reserved for God. Who am I? What power do I have to affect those concert goers. The only instruction I know from Scripture is to love them; not condemn them.
"I am reminded of a passage in 2 Cor. 6:14-16 which says, "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?"
From reading your post I would guess that you fellowshipped, harmonized and agreed pretty well with the crowd."
I have no problem with the 2 Cor. verses. Can you guess which part of his quote that I DID have a problem with? When I originally read his feedback, I was forced to go back and re-read my post. Here is what I found:
"In my church, the worship is led by a band that plays upbeat, even rock music. Looking around the auditorium, many people (mostly teenagers) were swaying, raising their hands, worshipping. I am a little more demure about my worship . . ."
The clue here that was easily missed was that even though it is common place at my church to do these kind of activities, I do not "get into" it in that way. It isn't my personality. However, somehow I AM that kind of person at a rock concert. It isn't true and there is nothing I wrote that would reasonably assume that I am.
"In unison, they sang, jumped, pumped their arms toward the objects of their affection. It was more than the throng admiring the music or the musicianship. The multitude was enraptured and was caught in unified worship.
I was in awe. Not that I have never witnessed this phenomenon before, but I never truly SAW it before. It confirms what my Christian spirit and the Scriptures have always taught me. God writes instructions on the hearts of mankind. He programs us."
Here, from the same post that Danny Kaye ASSUMES that I am WITH THE CROWD, I am in a role of witnessing it. I didn't write WE sang, jumped, etc., I wrote THEY. I truthfully do not know why he assumed the worse of me. He just did.
"I dunno, mate. I compare your admiration of their unity to seeing a couple involved in adultery and thinking, WOW!!! Look how much they love one another!"
I didn't admire the crowd; I admired God, His Word, the confirmation that this action was programmed by God, but perverted by this fallen world. There is a bigger picture there than drunken concert goers. There is something there that screams, "No matter how perverted or depraved the activity, the influence of God is still there. His fingerprints are everywhere. It is a shame that it gets perverted, but it has to be there for it to BE perverted. That is what I was in awe of.
"Look, I can avoid joining in on the profanity. I can avoid joining in on the drunkeness. And perhaps you are more pure and not so easily dragged into sin than I am, but if a naked woman (or many naked women) was flaunted in front of me, I imagine it would take me all of about .01 seconds to start lusting after what I saw."
That's a shame. I am not trying to be disrespectful, but Danny Kaye and I are different in this area. I am just not turned on by drunken women exposing their breasts in this fashion. I don't even think there was a lot of lusting in the crowd. There was more laughter than lip licking. And before DK jumps to more evil-seeking conclusions about me, I wasn't laughing either. Truthfully, I was just indifferent at this point of the concert (the very end).
"I am sure you are familiar with Galatians 5:19ff. But in case you are not, I'll post it:"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Dude! You experienced at least 5 or 6 of the things in this list alone at that concert!"
Again, I have no problem with the Word, just a problem with his assumptions. What did I experience (as opposed to witness)? Sexual immorality? Nope, I didn't even have my hands in my pockets. Impurity? Nope, showered and shaved before I left and I didn't then or do now use profanity. Debauchery? Nope, may have witnessed it, but I was pretty much a wall flower. Idolotry? Double no, I was worshipping God at the time. Witchraft? Please. Hatred? No. Discord? No, but I would have had I stood up an condemned the crowd. Jealousy? Hardly. Fits of Rage? No, but Danny Kaye may have had one had he been there (tongue in cheek). Selfish Ambition? Not hardly. Dissensions? See "Discord" above. Factions and Envy? No and no. Drunkeness? Nope, I had one overpriced Diet Pepsi. I have never been drunk in my life. Orgies? Ah . . . . no. I can't find one thing that I EXPERIENCED on that list.
"I guess I am a terrible Christian. Because I would have had to high-tail it outta there. I would not have been able to stay and see the wonders of God in that crowd. I gotta hand it to you, Jeff. You must be a VERY strong Christian."
Thank you, but don't worry. We are all terrible Christians. That is why we have a God of Grace and Mercy.
Let me give a little more background. I don't really like Motley Crue. As a matter of fact, if not for the song, "Home Sweet Home", I think I would dislike ALL of their music. However, a friend won two tickets to this concert, kind of likes '80's bands, and asked me to go with him so he wouldn't have to go alone. I agreed.
I didn't know what I was getting into, but I praised God that I got that little message from Him from going. That, in of itself, confirmed to me that God was not unhappy that I was there. Maybe some people like Danny Kaye can't handle that situation. I agree with his statement: "I would not have been able to stay and see the wonders of God in that crowd." He wouldn't and God would probably not have bothered to try to get him to see it. That doesn't make Danny Kaye wrong or inferior, just different. I think it is a gift to be able to see the Biblical God in all places. I thank God for that gift.
I am not going to judge people. That is up to God. If someone comes up to me and askes me what my opinion of an activity is, I would tell them. However, I won't judge them. Some people have to go through a lot of things to find God and the life that He wants them to live. I do not have the authority to prescribe that life. There is a Christian principle taught in AA that states that no one should deprive another of their suffering. There is a reason for that principle.
As I stated in the original post, "These people, the band and crowd alike, are on their paths - living out what they think is written on their hearts." Some day they will find God (if they hadn't already). Hopefully, it will be on this side of their last breaths.
In my recent post, "Written on their Hearts" which can be found below, I discussed how evidence of God can be found in the most unlikely of places. In making that point, I have undoubtedly invited criticism of myself even to the point where I may not believe the Bible is God's Word. This indictment comes from Danny Kaye. For those of you who read this blog, Danny Kaye also has other issues with my so-called Christianity. In "A Question of Blogging," he came down on me for keeping my blog thoughts away from my wife. After that post, I thought that he was a Christian brother just concerned about a mistake I may be making in my walk. I welcomed his comments and thoughts to help me stay accountable.After this post, however, I am coming to the realization that there may be more than this from Danny Kaye. It almost seems that he can't wait to see the splinter in my eye in order to call me on it. I still will give him the benefit of the doubt, but I do see the possibility that he may have some kind of "moral police" mentality. At any rate, I STILL welcome his comments. They still will help me think about my life and keep me accountable. As a matter of fact, I actually enjoy the engagement and would not reject off hand the idea of partnering with him on a Christian debate blog if this one hasn't morphed into that already.
I never dreamed that Danny Kaye or anyone would have a problem with my post. Instead of concentrating on my point, which he DID recognize, it seemed that he was just waiting to pounce by taking liberties with his assumptions.
Now for his charges and my response:
"First, let me say that I love concerts. I love music. I love crowds. I love a cold beer (especially after an ultimate frisbee game). I love entertainment in a big way! But...I have to ask this question before I start: Do you believe the Bible? (No, seriously.) . . . I mean, do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that it is the Standard and Ruler on which we should base our lives? The answer to that question will determine whether or not my comments will be heard without a "filter", or if my comment will fall flat."
Ironically, the post before this controversial one concluded with me pointing to the Bible as Truth and the Word of God. This means that either I am being charged with being a hypocrite, or not understanding what the concept of the Word of God means. I admit to being a hypocrite. I admitted that on this blog before. We ALL are. However, I don't believe I was hypoctical with my views of the concert. I do believe that the Bible is "the Standard and Ruler" on which I should base my life. However, the last sentence in Danny Kaye's quote is illigitimate. He sets up an exlcusive conditon which there is no room for any other possibility. Frankly, I don't see how he can claim that authority. Even if he does, I don't recognize it because I see a vast number of possibilities.
"But the part I have difficulty with is the part about not being offended by the sinfulness you saw there. I have to say that this one definately does NOT stack up well against the Scriptures.I am reminded of the Tower of Babel. Here was a bunch of folks who were sinning up a storm (the act of attempting to reach heaven without the help of God). The Lord found their activities offensive, even though they were unified."
I don't disagree with this. The people about the Tower of Babel were bypassing God to try to reach heaven. God was offended and TOOK ACTION AGAINST THEM. This is important. It was GOD that was offended and took action. This judgement was and is reserved for God. Who am I? What power do I have to affect those concert goers. The only instruction I know from Scripture is to love them; not condemn them.
"I am reminded of a passage in 2 Cor. 6:14-16 which says, "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?"
From reading your post I would guess that you fellowshipped, harmonized and agreed pretty well with the crowd."
I have no problem with the 2 Cor. verses. Can you guess which part of his quote that I DID have a problem with? When I originally read his feedback, I was forced to go back and re-read my post. Here is what I found:
"In my church, the worship is led by a band that plays upbeat, even rock music. Looking around the auditorium, many people (mostly teenagers) were swaying, raising their hands, worshipping. I am a little more demure about my worship . . ."
The clue here that was easily missed was that even though it is common place at my church to do these kind of activities, I do not "get into" it in that way. It isn't my personality. However, somehow I AM that kind of person at a rock concert. It isn't true and there is nothing I wrote that would reasonably assume that I am.
"In unison, they sang, jumped, pumped their arms toward the objects of their affection. It was more than the throng admiring the music or the musicianship. The multitude was enraptured and was caught in unified worship.
I was in awe. Not that I have never witnessed this phenomenon before, but I never truly SAW it before. It confirms what my Christian spirit and the Scriptures have always taught me. God writes instructions on the hearts of mankind. He programs us."
Here, from the same post that Danny Kaye ASSUMES that I am WITH THE CROWD, I am in a role of witnessing it. I didn't write WE sang, jumped, etc., I wrote THEY. I truthfully do not know why he assumed the worse of me. He just did.
"I dunno, mate. I compare your admiration of their unity to seeing a couple involved in adultery and thinking, WOW!!! Look how much they love one another!"
I didn't admire the crowd; I admired God, His Word, the confirmation that this action was programmed by God, but perverted by this fallen world. There is a bigger picture there than drunken concert goers. There is something there that screams, "No matter how perverted or depraved the activity, the influence of God is still there. His fingerprints are everywhere. It is a shame that it gets perverted, but it has to be there for it to BE perverted. That is what I was in awe of.
"Look, I can avoid joining in on the profanity. I can avoid joining in on the drunkeness. And perhaps you are more pure and not so easily dragged into sin than I am, but if a naked woman (or many naked women) was flaunted in front of me, I imagine it would take me all of about .01 seconds to start lusting after what I saw."
That's a shame. I am not trying to be disrespectful, but Danny Kaye and I are different in this area. I am just not turned on by drunken women exposing their breasts in this fashion. I don't even think there was a lot of lusting in the crowd. There was more laughter than lip licking. And before DK jumps to more evil-seeking conclusions about me, I wasn't laughing either. Truthfully, I was just indifferent at this point of the concert (the very end).
"I am sure you are familiar with Galatians 5:19ff. But in case you are not, I'll post it:"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Dude! You experienced at least 5 or 6 of the things in this list alone at that concert!"
Again, I have no problem with the Word, just a problem with his assumptions. What did I experience (as opposed to witness)? Sexual immorality? Nope, I didn't even have my hands in my pockets. Impurity? Nope, showered and shaved before I left and I didn't then or do now use profanity. Debauchery? Nope, may have witnessed it, but I was pretty much a wall flower. Idolotry? Double no, I was worshipping God at the time. Witchraft? Please. Hatred? No. Discord? No, but I would have had I stood up an condemned the crowd. Jealousy? Hardly. Fits of Rage? No, but Danny Kaye may have had one had he been there (tongue in cheek). Selfish Ambition? Not hardly. Dissensions? See "Discord" above. Factions and Envy? No and no. Drunkeness? Nope, I had one overpriced Diet Pepsi. I have never been drunk in my life. Orgies? Ah . . . . no. I can't find one thing that I EXPERIENCED on that list.
"I guess I am a terrible Christian. Because I would have had to high-tail it outta there. I would not have been able to stay and see the wonders of God in that crowd. I gotta hand it to you, Jeff. You must be a VERY strong Christian."
Thank you, but don't worry. We are all terrible Christians. That is why we have a God of Grace and Mercy.
Let me give a little more background. I don't really like Motley Crue. As a matter of fact, if not for the song, "Home Sweet Home", I think I would dislike ALL of their music. However, a friend won two tickets to this concert, kind of likes '80's bands, and asked me to go with him so he wouldn't have to go alone. I agreed.
I didn't know what I was getting into, but I praised God that I got that little message from Him from going. That, in of itself, confirmed to me that God was not unhappy that I was there. Maybe some people like Danny Kaye can't handle that situation. I agree with his statement: "I would not have been able to stay and see the wonders of God in that crowd." He wouldn't and God would probably not have bothered to try to get him to see it. That doesn't make Danny Kaye wrong or inferior, just different. I think it is a gift to be able to see the Biblical God in all places. I thank God for that gift.
I am not going to judge people. That is up to God. If someone comes up to me and askes me what my opinion of an activity is, I would tell them. However, I won't judge them. Some people have to go through a lot of things to find God and the life that He wants them to live. I do not have the authority to prescribe that life. There is a Christian principle taught in AA that states that no one should deprive another of their suffering. There is a reason for that principle.
As I stated in the original post, "These people, the band and crowd alike, are on their paths - living out what they think is written on their hearts." Some day they will find God (if they hadn't already). Hopefully, it will be on this side of their last breaths.
Labels: blog, christian living, debate, finding God, grace
Jeff,
It is obvious that I owe you an apology. You are right that I jumped to conclusions that never should have been jumped to. And I apologize.
When I read your post, I did not know that you went simply to keep a friend from going alone. Instead, I assumed that this was something you really wanted to do. I figured you sought and bought the tickets and were super-excited about going.
Undestand that, when I read your post, I read it in that light. And when your prose painted a picture of the scene, I assumed that you were thoroughly getting your money's worth. So when I read that you weren't offended by the sin around you, I assumed that you were either, at best, indifferent to it, or worst, enjoying it.
Such assumtions should not be made.
You may not believe me, but those who know me (whether from knowing me in person, or having been bloggin' buddies for the last coupla years) know that I am WELL aware that I haven't a moral leg to stand on. They would seriously get quite a kick out of ME being accused of being the "moral police"!!! WOW!
Please know that I am NOT waiting to pounce on you about anything. I do not live my Christianity in such a way, despite what you may think of me right now. For some reason I shut my brain off and I forgot to ask the questions that would have made what you were saying more clear.
Look. What I believe we have here is a LOT of noise in our communication cycle. I assumed a lot that I should not have assumed. And you assumed that I was trying play the "Christian-one-up-on-you" game. You were right to have been offended by the comment. And I apologize: to you...and to your readers.
Danny Kaye,
Thanks for the apology. I accept. For the most part, I didn't have a problem with your theology, just the assumptions of which you addressed.
That being said, I look forward to your feedback, even if it does come cross-wise of the way I am thinking. As I said before, it makes the conversation interesting.
It takes humility to apologize in this "I have to be right" world. I admire that.
Truthfully, I hadn't CONCLUDED that you had the "moral police" mentality, but it did cross my mind for the first time with this issue (as I mentioned in the post). It is good to know that isn't the case (although I still say it makes for good discussion if you were). :)
BTW - My friend had to talk me into going. I said "no" the first couple of times. I finally relented because I realized it would hurt him to go alone.
Hi Jeff
I have awarded you a "Nice Blogger" award. :-)
When I read Danny Kaye's comment I didn't see it the way you did - although apparently you were right that he'd made some incorrect assumptions.
There are some other things we can be reminded of here. We do have a responsibility to watch out for each other in matters such as these and going to the Bible for a rebuke is the correct way to start that. It doesn't mean we want to pounce on people when they do bad things or make ourselves feel righteous, it means we should be ready to ask hard questions of people and keep each other accountable. Normally I'd consider this is something you would do within your church rather than over the internet, but perhaps it doesn't have to be. If it turns out that we were wrong about circumstances then that's great, it means that someone wasn't sinning, but we were able to show them love by making sure that they still had loving God as their priority.
Jeff, I don't know if I read your thoughts about not judging people the way you mean them. It is for God to take action against sin, but it is for us to have the mindset of Christ - sin should still be appalling to us. I think that we don't consider how bad it is often enough and I know I sometimes become indifferent to it (I'm not saying you do that). Having said that, it doesn't mean that we come down all judgemental on someone, we still have to treat them with love, but there's a fine line between trying not to judge and appearing to endorse someone's actions (even if you don't endorse them in your heart). Do you know what I mean?
Oh, and it was an interesting observation about the way God has made us with certain qualities. It's similar to wisdom and kindness - they're things that come from God and sometimes people say "but non-Christians can do good things". Of course they can, because God's goodness and wisdom are woven into his creation!